The Vivienne talksabout drag, speaking out, and the future

The drag superstar kindly agreed to talk to us about their role in the revival of The Wizard of Oz musical that finishes its Llandudno run on Sunday.

At the time of writing, there are tickets still available for the Saturday evening and Sunday shows.

You can read our review of the show here

After telling us about how the role is a dream come true, the conversation turned to The Vivienne's career so far, her hopes for the future, and the art of drag.

Wizard of Oz - The Vivienne production photography (c) Marc Brenner

She told us the importance of supporting your local drag queens, the obligation she feels to use her platform as a gay performer, and whether a return to RuPaul's Drag Race is on the cards.

First, we asked if playing Wicked Witch of the West has whetted the performer's appetite to take on other roles.

Wizard of Oz - The Vivienne production photography (c) Marc Brenner

The Vivienne, who now lives in Chester, said: "Two of my friends came to see the show the other night, an older gay couple, and they said they were just in tears. There's a certain scene where you were Norma Desmond. It's the scene just after my big number where the slippers are within grasp and she's completely lost her mind, it's very Norma Desmond.

"I don't think I've got the pipes for Norma Desmond," The Vivienne adds modestly. "But definitely other roles. Miss Hannigan in Annie is one, and Miss Truchbull in Matilda.

And would future roles always involved being in drag?

Wizard of Oz - The Vivienne production photography (c) Marc Brenner

The Vivienne added: "I'd love to play some male characters as well. The Child Catcher is another iconic villain that has scared children to death."

"Yes, I think so. Going on completely stripped back would be good.

With most of The Vivienne's roles being comedic or musical, we asked if they had a desire to take on, for want of a better term, a straight acting role.

"Yes I would. I have acted in something with Ben Whishaw and that was a pretty straight scene. I'd love to do it.

"But I don't think I could ever play "straight". That's hilarious, I don't think I've got the acting chops for that! I don't think anyone would believe that!"

For most of us, The Vivienne's career started on season one of RuPaul's Drag Race in 2019. Spoiler alert, The Vivienne won!

Wizard of Oz Rehearsal Photography - The Vivienne Venues (c) Marc Brenner

But their drag journey began at the age of 16 after James Lee Williams moved from Colwyn Bay to Liverpool - where their metamorphosis into The Vivienne really began.

These days, North Wales has a blossoming drag and cabaret scene, with artists like the Royal Serenity, Gutterslut and Miss Cherry Good, as well as veteran queen Shagger, putting on shows week in and week out.

So how important is it for drag fans to support their local queens?

"It's very important," says The Vivienne.

Wizard of Oz Rehearsal Photography - The Vivienne Venues (c) Marc Brenner

And what about baby queens? Can they make it here in North Wales, or do they need to love to the bright lights of Liverpool, Manchester, or even London?

She replies: "It depends what you want to do. When I started drag, I was 16, maybe 15 when I first dipped my toe in. Not every drag performer wants to be a TV star or a theatre star. I was quite happy working the clubs, but then certain doors opened and I loved it. Some queens are quite happy to have a day job and don a frock on a Saturday night, do a show, then come home, put it in a box and forget about it.

"I love the performance of it, I'm always trying to push the boundaries of what I can do with it. I never thought it would get me on Emmerdale or acting with Ben Wishaw or, now, performing in a fill-scale musical. I want to push the boundaries of how far I can take it, and so far it's going alright!"

With The Vivienne regularly on our screens in the likes of Emmerdale and Dancing on Ice, and queens like Jinkx Monsoon earning every plaudit on Broadway and about to appear in Doctor Who, is this a golden age of drag?

The Vivienne said: "Yes, I suppose it is. How long will it last? I don't know. I mean Jinkx is going to have a career forever, but at the moment its very hot topic that everyone wants a slice of. I just hope it doesn't get oversaturated, and overkill, that we see with a lot of things. X Factor was the big thing back in the day. X Factor was the Drag Race for singers, but where's that now?

"It never ends, but then again, on the flip side, people have called Drag Race the gay Olympics or gay football. If you look at it as a gay sport, you might have five football matches on in a day, three days a week. So if you look at it that way, it's not that much.

"Who knows? Let's just ride it out and see what happens."

The Vivienne and Colin Grafton on Dancing on Ice. Image: Matt Frost/ITV (Image: Matt Frost/ITV)

The Vivienne added: "Drag Race is a great phenomenon. It's the biggest pop cultural phenomenon that we've had since I couldn't even tell you when. It's just huge, I've lost count of how many Emmys it's won. It has changed the world.

"But there is that kind of thing of Drag Race fans versus drag fans - they can name a hundred Drag Race queens but they can't name five that are in their own city. It also goes for young people starting in drag where there only reference point is Drag Race, they don't know who Danny La Rue is, they don't know who Jimmy James is, they don't know who Charles Pierce is. People who have trod the boards that you can actually learn a hell of a lot from. So, yeah, do you research, learn your craft.

" It's a lot more than buying a wig, putting on some make-up, and saying 'slay!'"

As fun as drag can seem, it can, and frequently does, face discrimination.

The Vivienne on the Emmerdale set. Picture: ITV

Does The Vivienne feel pressure to speak out on such issues as a LGBTQ+ celebrity?

"I do," she replied. "And, listen, I'm of the ilk that I won't speak out on things that I'm not fully educated on, or that I might be speaking out of turn on, or I might offend someone. However, I have a huge platform and there's a huge community of trans performers, trans women, drag queens, gay men, people of colour, that are getting discriminated against every single day. They are getting attacked, they are getting murdered. For absolutely nothing. So I will use my platform as much as I can to speak out on it.

"Anything I can do to help things, I will do.

"I had Lily growing up, Lily Savage, who was great. It's kind of mad. Back then Lily dominated Saturday night TV and it was just a normal thing. Now if a drag queen is on TV you have Twitter going off. "What's that?" "Get it off my telly." We've been here since day one, love. You'd be happy to watch Mrs Doubtfire, the movie or the musical, with the kids. It's drag, it absolutely is drag. It's more drag than some of the drag queens they're putting out today, trust me.

"It's a double standard saying that if it's a straight man in drag, it's fine. We all loved Robin Williams, as do I, he's one of my absolute icons, but if you put a gay man in a dress it's different. It's toxic masculinity. It's intrinsic. It's homophobia, you can't get round it."

BBC handout photo of (left to right) of finalists The Vivienne, Baga Chipz and Divina De Campo, as the first series of RuPaul's Drag Race UK saw its first champion crowned.

The Vivienne is in the midst of a hectic period, with several shows on the horizon, including a UK solo tour.

Finally, we ask if they would put their career on hold again for a return to Drag Race.

Wizard of Oz - The Vivienne production photography (c) Marc Brenner

Although, not ruling it out, for The Vivienne they feel they have nothing left to prove on the show.

The Vivienne said: "My argument is, I've done All Stars and the only reason I did that was that it was all winners. So now, I don't know how they'd bring me back. If you look at the format of Drag Race, the challenges are to see if you can deal with things that are thrown at you in the outside world. All the challenges are based on things that Ru had to do, whether it be acting or singing. This is going to sound really big headed, but I've done films, I've done TV, I've done a solo tour, I've done group tours, I've travelled the world, and I'm now in musical theatre. They are all the kinds of challenges on the show, to go back and do a musical challenge when I've proved in an actual musical that I can do that. I've done acting and stand up comedy.

"To stand there and be judged a reality show on what I do as a professional career, I'm not trying to make it any more although I am always trying to make it and get better and better, it just seems weird."

After a pause, The Vivienne pondered: "Maybe to host it one day if Ru ever hangs up her heels?"